. >> so in personal deficits or not, especially if we have a national deficit, spending money on pell grants is a good investor -- a good investment for our tax payers? >> it is not spending, it's an investment. you are absolutely correct. >> thank you. >> thank you very much. >> i appreciate this opportunity. it's a fascinating conversation. i want to focus on the testimony of dr. robinson. hearing is important because it highlights the testimony of now moving as a away from a philosophy toward higher education that focuses only on access and starts to look at success. i'm a product of pell grants. i could not have graduated from wabash college without pell grants. i have lived the importance of these degrees great but the world has changed a lot in last 40 years. i would say the federal financial aid system is one of the great success stories in the history of the federal government. access, weal was provided access to higher education for people in this country like never before. the challenge is, when these programs started 40 years ago, access was enough. when you looked at the i